Archive for the ‘Bill of Rights’ Category

Practical Aspects of Gun Control, Part 1

PracticalGunControlPart1   <– PDF version

In my previous essay on this topic [1], I was clear in my opinion that the way to reduce mass shootings is to lock up the dangerous people in appropriate mental institutions, not to impose regulations on the 150 million citizens who exercise their rights.  I also mentioned then that I would address the practical aspects of “gun control”; this is the first installment, which addresses the importance of national culture.

1          The Cultural Aspect

The advocates for disarmament of the American people are constantly misinforming us with claims that other advanced nations have adopted “sensible” laws regarding gun ownership, and that we Americans should “get modern”, join up with “civilized society”, and either abolish the Second Amendment or neuter it with regulations.  But these same disarmament advocates fail to point out (knowingly or not) that the real issue regarding the Second Amendment is not what kind of guns should be available; it is ultimately about the degree of individual freedom that the citizen possesses and how it is to be preserved; to what extent the people should passively trust any government (with its enormous powers); and whether in fact, any government is willing or capable of fulfilling its promises in times of emergency.  The debate is not about guns per se, just as the First Amendment is not about the color of ink or the scheduling of talk shows.

The so-called American “gun culture” is nothing more than a by-product of the American “freedom culture”.  The advocates for disarmament claim that other nations and societies have “progressed” to the point that privately-owned arms are now unnecessary, and that the Second Amendment is an interesting but useless anachronism.  It is in fact the other way around: many other nations and societies have “regressed” to the point that the individual freedom is being abolished in the face of bureaucratic tyranny.  The nations of Europe were the first to develop the concept of individual liberty, but now most of them have abandoned it; a few illustrations should suffice to show that these so-called “progressive” nations are not worthy of emulation when it comes to firearm restrictions, since these same restrictions are symptoms of a larger problem, namely, the degradation of the importance of the individual.

The once free and vigorous Germans have fallen furthest.  It was the Germanic peoples that infused the subjects of theRoman Empirewith the notion of individual freedom, so foreign to Roman understanding.  And so it was for many centuries, until the gradual encroachment of the state under the influence of the Prussians.  The Germans were prepared for the scientific prescription of tyranny outlined by their fellow countryman Karl Marx in the 1870’s.  Only the scientific German mind could conceive of Marxism, the foundation of the modern systematic totalitarian systems of Fascism and Communism.  For some reason, the Germans have gradually combined traditional duty with modern blind obedience.  It was no surprise that the German people embraced Hitler when he said in 1933 [2]:

“Our aim is to draw from the midst of the people a class of leaders which shall be as hard as steel.  When in this way the people have been rightly trained through its political leadership, then the social spirit will come to its own, for he who thinks only in terms of economics will never be able to think and act truly socially.”

Or again in 1935 [3]:

“The question of fallibility or infallibility [of the government] is not under discussion; the individual has as little right to question the action of the political leaders as the soldier to question the orders of his military superiors.”

The past few centuries of history shows that the average German will do anything that anyone with a government ID tells them to do — “Tote that barge” — “Lift that bale” — “Round up those Protestants” — “March those Jewish children into that gas chamber.”  Never a hint of protest, or questioning of authority; they have become so suppressed in their thinking that they no longer believe there is any legitimate need for self-defense; they implicitly trust all government employees.  They are willing to have all means of resistance licensed and registered. They will not object to the universal weapon confiscation that Hitler implemented, simply because the government says they must.  It is true that the people ofGermanycollectively own about 5 million firearms, subject to some of the strictest control in existence; each firearm must be licensed, and a justification for the license must be stated.  Self-defense is not a valid reason.

The German mindset is nothing new.  The German Confederation (1815 – 1866) was a full police state, complete with censorship, arbitrary searches, internal passports, no right to trial by jury, and no right to bear arms [4].  The German Empire (1866 – 1918) continued in much the same manner, complete with persecution of Catholics and protection of the anti-Semite National Socialists [5].  Even after the First World War, a civil service bureaucracy with a strong tradition of exercising absolute authority, and which retained all its traditional privileges, continued to dominate the German people [6].

The Germans have had their Frederick William, their Bismarck, and their Hitler; another one will arise sooner or later, and there will be no domestic resistance to him.  Tyrants do not tolerate competition.  When that new German tyrant emerges, he will find it a simple matter to seize absolute control by seizing all the guns; it will be easy because the registration and licensing requirements will point him to all the potential sources of resistance.

The British once had a long tradition of individual freedom, but has eroded since the Second World War.  Apparently the British have fallen prey to the notion that guns are only for evil.  They have lost their original notion of human dignity and the right to self defense; they are no longer a model useful to America.  For some reason, the British no longer read Blackstone [7]:

“Both the life and limbs of a man are of such high value, in the estimation of the law of England, that it pardons even homicide if committed se defendendo, or in order to preserve them.  For whatever is done by a man, to save either life or members, is looked upon as done upon the highest necessity and compulsion.”

They no longer read even Hobbes.  Here was a man who advocated the absolute divine right of kings, believed one was guilty until proven innocent, and endorsed the punishment of groups for the crimes of individuals; and yet recognized the immutable right of self-defense, both for oneself and for others [8]:

“Whensoever a man transferreth his right, or renounceth it, it is either in consideration of some right reciprocally transferred to himself, or for some other good he hopeth for thereby.  For it is a voluntary act: and of the voluntary acts of every man, the object is some good to himself.  And therefore there be some rights which no man can be understood by any words, or other signs, to have abandoned or transferred.  As first a man cannot lay down the right of resisting them that assault him by force to take away his life, because he cannot be understood to aim thereby at any good to himself.  The same may be said of wounds, and chains, and imprisonment, both because there is no benefit consequent to such patience, as there is to the patience of suffering another to be wounded or imprisoned, as also because a man cannot tell when he seeth men proceed against him by violence whether they intend his death or not.”

The modern British have even forgotten John Locke, who extends defense to liberty and property [9]:

The state of war is a state of enmity and destruction; and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but a sedate settled design, upon another man’s life, puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other’s power to be taken away from him, or anyone that joins with him in his defense, and espouses his quarrel: it being reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction. …  For I have reason to conclude, that he who would get me into his power without my consent, would use me as he pleased, when he got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it: for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power, unless it be to compel me by force to that, which is against the right of my freedom, i.e., to make me a slave.  To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation: and reason bids me look on him, as an enemy to my preservation, who would take away that freedom, which is the fence to it: so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me, thereby puts himself into a state of war with me. … This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any further than by the use of force, so as to get him into his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases from him: because in using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretense be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not when he had me in his power, take away everything else.  And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him, as one who has put himself into a state of war with me, i.e., kill him if I can, for to that hazard does he justly expose himself, whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it.

And yet, the modern British subject cannot legally practice self-defense for themselves or their family, nor to defend their property, nor to preserve any liberty.  While it is possible to obtain a Firearms or Shotgun Certificate, allowing one to own a gun, self-defense cannot be legally cited as the reason for wanting one.

Perhaps the Parliament decided that they should have a clean, tidy kingdom, and should not have to tolerate the Queen’s innocent subjects going about defending themselves from her criminal subjects.  Having adopted this notion that self-defense being obsolete — regarded now as too messy, too violent — Parliament decided it is better to disarm the innocent than to have this kind of inconvenience.  Better the peaceful subject tolerate any indignity or violence than to resist.  Parliament accordingly passed a series of laws disarming the people in response to a school shooting there, knowing full well that no law prohibiting self-defense will affect them personally any more than laws affect the Queen or the criminals.  So the modern law-abiding British gave up all their guns (except for an occasional two-shot hunting shotgun) for Queen, country, and public safety; the only problem being that it has not made the subjects safe, since the criminal subjects do not care about the innocent or the law.

The French and most other European governments (except for the Czech Republic and Switzerland) have imposed similar restrictions on the people’s ability to keep arms: requiring licenses and “justifications”, and imposing limits on the number of cartridges that can be purchased annually.

The Chinese are certainly no model for America.  Their entire history is one of enslavement by one warlord or another.  There is neither a history of, nor a desire for, freedom as understood in the West.  The Communists, simply the largest and most successful warlords, are now permitting a little economic freedom, but will never tolerate true political freedom, or any notion of the importance of the individual.  They will certainly never permit the notion of self-defense to catch on, nor permit the tools thereof to be possessed freely by the people; it would be the end of their reign.

The Japanese have a similar tradition of allowing themselves to be suppressed by arbitrary government power; it was only in 1945 they accepted the concept that the emperor was not a god.  All guns are prohibited to the people, although the Yakuza (Japanese mafia) is not inconvenienced at all.  That makes perfect sense to the powerful: sometimes the Yakuza works for the government, sometimes the government works for the Yakuza; but the taxpaying Japanese people are always at the mercy of both.

The people of India have a history similar to the Chinese, except they have been pushed around by tribal leaders and colonial masters rather than warlords.

Nothing need be said about the people of Africa: it is the only continent where slavery is still practiced, by blacks enslaving blacks, and sometimes Arabs enslaving blacks.  This is the place where the notion of individual life and liberty is so suppressed that they are willing to watch two million of their children die of malaria every year because some bureaucrat at the UN outlawed DDT.  It is the place where the genocides are most recent (Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe) and in which children are fighters in the numerous tribal and civil wars.

The “rights of persons” is talked about in many places, but America is one of the few places left where those rights are taken seriously enough that the people retain the power to enforce them if necessary. America inherited these concepts from the British, who have now largely abandoned them.  Only a small fraction of the American people believe that self-defense is evil, or that government can always be trusted so long as the people have the power to vote.   Granted, the American politicians have made some progress in weakening these sentiments by increasing dependence on government programs.  But for now, the American culture, generally speaking, still embraces not only the notion of liberty, but recognizes the need for arms in the hands of the people to protect it.

The historical aspect of gun control is considered next.

[1]  Edward D. Duvall, “Retard Control, Not Gun Control”, 26 Dec 2012

[2]  Norman H. Baynes, Hitler’s Speeches, London: Oxford University Press, 1942, Vol. 1, p. 482.  The occasion was a speech at the Fuhrertagung, 19-20 Jun 1933

[3]  ibid., Vol. 1, p. 447.  The occasion was a speech at the Nuremberg Parteitag, 18 Sep 1935.

[4]  Ernest F. Henderson, A Short History of Germany, New York: Macmillan Co., 1906, Vol. II, pp. 335-339, 344, 345

[5]  Carlton J. H. Hayes, Contemporary Europe Since 1870, New York, Macmillan Co., 1953, pp. 139-141

[6]  Hajo Holborn, A History of Modern Germany, 1840-1945, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1969, p. 555

[7]  William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book 1, Chapter 1, Section 2 (1765)

[8]  Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, chapter 14 (1651)

[9]  John Locke, The Second Treatise of Government, (1689), sections 16 – 18

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Bill O’Reilly Spins Christmas

BillOReillySpinsChristmas   <== PDF version

Mr. Bill O’Reilly, host of Fox News’ “The Factor”, spent considerable airtime this past Christmas season calling out liberals, atheists, and some politicians for “waging a war on Christmas”.  He is correct in pointing out that mainstream “liberalism” is devoted to ridiculing religion in general; it is also true that atheists have sometimes gone to extreme lengths to eliminate all publicly-displayed symbols that can be remotely tied to a religion.  Actually, not all public displays of religion are under attack: there is never a criticism of Islam, Kwanzaa, or Marxism.

But in any case, Mr. O’Reilly was very critical of those who are trying to eliminate any hint of Christian symbols in public.  His main argument is: atheists and secularists are wrong to seek removal of certain objects associated with Christianity (such as the manger scenes, Christmas trees, and Santa Claus) because all of these are simply traditions and do not represent a religion per se.  He argued that it is misguided for atheists to reject Christmas symbols on the grounds that the word “Christmas” constitutes establishment of religion by the state.

As Mr. O’Reilly carefully explained to his (atheist) guest Mr. David Silverman: “It is a fact that Christianity is not a religion.  It is a philosophy.” [1]

So Mr. O’Reilly has proclaimed that Christianity is a philosophy.  I guess that shows how stupid I am.  I’ve always thought that Jesus Christ had authority to determine what Christianity is and is not.  For the sake of completeness, here is what Jesus Christ said about Himself, and thus, about Christianity [2]:

Matt 10:32, 33      Whoever acknowledges me [Jesus Christ] before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.  But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

John 3:17, 18       For God did not send his Son [Jesus Christ] into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him [Christ] is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 4:25, 26       The woman [at the well at Sychar inSamaria] said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming.  When he comes, he will explain everything to us”.  Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”

John 14:5, 6          Thomas [the apostle] said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”  Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me.”

It is clear that Christianity is not simply a philosophy.  But nor is it a religion, which is any system by which man seeks to pacify or gain the favor of God — Christianity is a relationship with God.  I hope that clears things up.

[1]        The O’Reilly Factor, 28 Nov 2012

[2]        Scripture quotations per the New International Version, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1995; explanations in square brackets are mine

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Retard Control, Not Gun Control

RetardControlNotGunControl   <– PDF version

We have now just passed one of the darkest Christmas seasons in memory, after so many small children were murdered by a clinical retard at an elementary school in Newtown, CT.  The tiny bodies were not even cold when our Marxist politicians, ever alert to exploit a tragedy, took to the airwaves to demand that all the other citizens give up their Second Amendment rights because of the action of a single retard.  President Obama has since commissioned a task force to develop new and innovative ways to disarm the people; their report is due sometime in Jan 2013.

When I use the word “retard”, I am not referring to those who have below-average IQ; I am referring to those who have been recognized as clinically insane by competent mental health authorities – the people that pose a clear danger to themselves and others.

Most of the recent mass shooters, including Retard Jared Loughner of Tuscon AZ fame, Retard James Holmes of Aurora CO fame, and the latest one, Retard Adam Lanza of Newtown CT fame, were all profoundly mentally ill.  In fact, the Christmas Eve shooter of Webster NY, Retard William Spengler, had previously served 17 years in prison for murdering his grandmother.  All were known to be retards by the local health officials — why was nothing done to intervene?  Is this how our illustrious government seeks to protect us — by failing in its duty while taking away the rights of the people?

I suspect that the government prefers to let these retards walk free until they commit some horrific crime; it keeps the rest of the people nervous and fearful.  History shows that people who are afraid are more willing to give up their liberties if they can be convinced that doing so will ensure their safety.  What better way for the politicians and the bureaucrats to kill two birds with one stone: implement some gun control to reduce the Second Amendment guarantee while assuring the weak-minded that we will have a safer nation because of it?  It is typical for that type of politician, already suitably divorced from reality, to actually believe they can eliminate evil by passing laws to regulate inanimate objects.  The real problem, as far as these shootings are concerned, is that we no longer have a viable mechanism to commit these retards to institutions, where they can either be treated as they require by expert medical practitioners and restored to mental health, or comforted and cared for in a place where they can only hurt each other.  It is unfortunate that some will fall into the latter category; but that is how it is.  Or maybe our illustrious politicians would prefer small children being killed in their schools by retards on the loose, either by shooting, by burning the building down, or running them down with a pickup truck.

The National Rifle Association released a statement recommending, among other things, that perhaps instead of giving up liberty, we should have armed guards in the schools.  I am not convinced that it is the ultimate answer, but suffice to say that our Marxist politicians immediately rejected the idea and castigated the NRA for being “tone deaf”.  The mainstream media of course neglected to mention that there are about 130,000 elementary and high schools in America and about a third of them have had armed guards for decades.  They will never mention it; doing so would only remind the voters that armed guards in the public schools are necessary only in cities where the Democratic Party has established their brand of paradise: Boston, Providence, New York, Philadelphia, Newark, Baltimore, Washington DC, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, Gary, Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, and St. Louis.  It is odd indeed that the Marxist politicians would criticize the NRA for recommending something that the Democrats have been doing for decades.  But this omission makes perfect sense when you recall that the goal is not public safety — if it were, we would be committing dangerous retards to institutions where they belong.  The goal is to disarm the people.

It is not just the opportunistic politicians joining the gun-control/disarmament bandwagon.  Now Dr. Fareed Zakaria (commentator for CNN and political advisor to Mr. Obama) also desires to solve the retard problem by essentially killing off the Second Amendment.  In his 23 Dec 2012 article [1], Evidence Overwhelming: Loose Guns Laws to Blame, Dr. Zakaria cites reductions in homicides in other nations after gun prohibition, ridicules existing gun laws in the U. S. as being too lenient, then concludes: “Instead, why not have the government do something much simpler and that has proved successful: limit access to guns.”  He is referring, as stated earlier in the column, to banning all semi-automatic and automatic firearms, as was done in Great Britain, Japan, and Australia.  That brings up an important topic.  Dr. Zakaria is a native of India; India has draconian gun prohibition laws which are a holdover from the British colonial regime.  If India is such a free and safe society, why did Dr. Zakaria emigrate to the U. S., so full of gun owners?   He must have thought there was greater freedom here.  He was right.  What he fails to realize is that freedom exists here but not in India partly because the people are armed.  As the famous Indian activist Mahatma Ghandi wrote [2]:

“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.”

Apparently Dr. Zakaria disagrees with Mr. Ghandi and would like to turn the American people into the suppressed subjects that the Indian people were when ruled by Her Majesty Queen Victoria.  If His Lordship Viceroy and Governor-General Dr. Zakaria won’t believe Mr. Ghandi, perhaps he will believe a leader of his adopted nation, Senator (later Vice President) Hubert H. Humphrey [3]:

“Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms.  This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used, and that definite safety rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced.  But the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote inAmerica, but which historically has proved to be always possible.”

This is the basic fact that His Lord Highness Fareed and other like-minded Marxists deliberately ignore, hoping you will not notice.  Only an armed population has a reasonable chance of remaining free, given the usual long-term trend of every government toward absolute power.  This pattern is true throughout history, no matter the form or construction of the government.  We shall see in the coming weeks ever more shrill demands by the Marxist element for you, the citizen, to give up your right to be armed; which is in essence, a demand that you give up your long-term prospects for freedom.  We shall see who in Washington, if any, are willing to oppose them.

The best answer to the random shootings is retard control, not gun control.  If and when the government finds a backbone and takes action to ensure that retards are placed in their proper environment (where they can get real treatment), we will have fewer tragedies like the Newtown incident.

I shall consider in subsequent essays some other practical considerations regarding “gun controls”.

[1]  The Arizona Republic, 23 Dec 2012, p. B10

[2]  Cited by Abhijeet Singh, “Colonial Roots of Gun Control”, Mahatma Ghandi, An Autobiography OR The Story of My Experiments With Truth, p. 238;  https://abhijeetsingh.com

[3]  Guns magazine, Feb 1960, p. 4; https://commongunsense.net/2011/01/hubert-humphrey-in-1960/

 

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On Unprivileged Enemy Belligerents

On Unprivileged Enemy Belligerents <== PDF version

The U. S. Senate has now before it S. 3081, “The Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010”, which would allow the President to assign a certain designation to persons, and thereby authorize they be detained indefinitely without trial.  The provision reads, in part:

An individual, including a citizen of the United States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of war may be detained without criminal charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners in which the individual has engaged, or which the individual has purposely and materially supported, consistent with the law of war and any authorization for the use of military force provided by Congress pertaining to such hostilities.

The aforementioned section 3(c)(2) reads:

FINAL DETERMINATION- As soon as possible after receipt of a preliminary determination of status with respect to a high-value detainee under paragraph (1), the Secretary of Defense and the Attorney General shall jointly submit to the President and to the appropriate committees of Congress a final determination whether or not the detainee is an unprivileged enemy belligerent for purposes of this Act. In the event of a disagreement between the Secretary of Defense and the Attorney General, the President shall make the final determination.

It was sponsored by Senators McCain, Lieberman, Inhofe, Brown, Wicker, Chambliss, LeMieux, Sessions, and Vitter.

Some critics of the provision have opposed it on the grounds that it violates the fifth and sixth Amendments to the U. S. Constitution.  Actually, it is worse than that: it violates the entire spirit of the Constitution; it violates the Constitution even if the fifth and sixth Amendments had never been passed.

Article 1, Section 9 of the U. S. Constitution, which defines the general powers of the Congress (which possess all legislative powers under the Constitution), reads: “The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of actual rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”

Alexander Hamilton, defending the proposed Constitution in The Federalist # 84, which as proposed, did not contain a bill of rights, addressed the importance of the habeas corpus provision.  He notes the provision of habeas corpus, the prohibition on ex post facto laws, and the prohibitions upon conveying titles of nobility in the proposed federal Constitution and points out the lack thereof in the constitution of the state of New York.  He then proceeds to quote from the famous English jurist William Blackstone the underlying importance of the habeas corpus provision.  Hamilton wrote:

“It may well be a question, whether these are not, upon the whole, of equal importance with any which are to be found in the constitution of this State. The establishment of the writ of habeas corpus, the prohibition of ex-post-facto laws, and of TITLES OF NOBILITY, to which we have no corresponding provision in our Constitution, are perhaps greater securities to liberty and republicanism than any it contains.  The creation of crimes after the commission of the fact, or, in other words, the subjecting of men to punishment for things which, when they were done, were breaches of no law, and the practice of arbitrary imprisonments, have been, in all ages, the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny. The observations of the judicious Blackstone, in reference to the latter, are well worthy of recital: “To bereave a man of life, [says he,] or by violence to confiscate his estate, without accusation or trial, would be so gross and notorious an act of despotism, as must at once convey the alarm of tyranny throughout the whole nation; but confinement of the person, by secretly hurrying him to jail, where his sufferings are unknown or forgotten, is a less public, a less striking, and therefore a more dangerous engine of arbitrary government.”  And as a remedy for this fatal evil he is everywhere peculiarly emphatical in his encomiums on the habeas-corpus act, which in one place he calls “the BULWARK of the British Constitution.”

If this proposal becomes law, we will have two classes of citizens: the privileged, for whom the writ of habeas corpus still prevails, and the rest of the people, who may be spirited off to jail for the duration of hostilities because some bureaucrat somewhere has convinced the President that doing so aids in the prosecution of hostilities.

It used to be that even traitorous lowlifes got their day in court.  They were vigorously tried based on evidence; a jury decided their guilt or innocence in a fair trial; and they were honorably shot or hanged if convicted. But that process appears to be too much of an inconvenience to the government in these modern times.  So, we see the continual attempts to encroach upon not just the liberty of individuals, but to encroach upon the basic tenets of limited government — that is, a free society.

A supporter of S. 3081 may claim that the cases are different; that the designation of enemy belligerents does not fall under the “arbitrary imprisonments” that Blackstone rightfully complains of, since S. 3081 requires a formal designation by the President. But I say they are exactly the type discussed by Blackstone.  If a medieval English king ordered someone to
be sent to the Tower, did he not first designate that victim by name under some rationale?  Of course – how else would the police know who to arrest, and thus satisfy the tyrant?  The process here is exactly the same, and should be rejected for the same reasons.

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